Kicked by an elephant

but never punched by a badger

Bible Bashers

February 17, 2008 at 3:36 pm · Filed under God and tagged: , , , , ,

sam1.jpg

You may have seen this disturbing Cutting Edge programme on Channel 4 the other night. It featured some child evangelists in the States. I didn’t see it all but what I did see really upset me. One story was of Sam aged 7 whose Dad took him to New York on one of their evangelism projects. They carried boards condemning fornicators, homosexuals etc. to Hell. Sam’s dad warned him not to expect a good welcome because these people hated God. Sam stood up on a wall and began to preach from the Bible sounding like he was 40yrs old. Everyone was just laughing at him. Then his Dad started screaming at people – how they were all going to hell and needed to repent. Not surprisingly people did not take kindly to this – they shouted back, quite an argument ensued, someone threw water over Sam’s Dad and it looked like a fight was going to break out. Sam was obviously very scared but his Dad told him just to sit there and watch how it was just as he’d said it would be – because they were God haters. Then Sam asked for his mum and he started to cry. It was heart breaking and even thinking about it now makes me feel like crying.

There are many things I could say about this but 2 main things struck me:

Firstly I actually do believe a lot of what Sam and his Dad were saying. Which kind of shocked me. It made me feel very uncomfortable hearing scripture presented in such an unbalanced and particularly ungracious way which I felt was dishonouring to Jesus.

Secondly it made me frightened in case I could become guilty of indoctrinating my children. Clearly Sam’s Dad was sincere in what he was doing. He seemed to believe he could make a difference, he seemed to believe that he was doing the best for his son by encouraging his ‘gift’. Of course to the outsider it appears as if Sam has been brain washed and is being put in situations which cause serious psychological harm. It made me reflect on the opinions and beliefs that I hold and how I communicate (or will communicate) that with my boys. Already L (nearly 2) seems to love going to church. He seems to enjoy dancing during the praise and he seems to enjoy praying before he goes to sleep. But does he really enjoy these things or is his pleasure because he knows it gives me & his mum pleasure? Is it the same as that displayed by any circus monkey performing for his master?

How will I react if when he’s 6 he says he doesn’t want to go to Sunday School, or if at 15 he decides he’s an athiest, or if at 19 he says he’s gay?

I’m starting to realise this parenting lark ain’t that easy. I just hope and pray that God will give me the grace to allow my children the freedom to express their individuality, and the wisdom to know the difference between instilling discipline or encouraging moral character and indoctrination.

8 Comments »

  qmonkey wrote @ February 17, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Yeah I saw some of that program too… I watch too much TV! It was scary stuff… but I’m impressed with your very honest post. I guess all you/I can do is bring up your kids the best way you see fit according to your beliefs… as long as you’re honest with yourself with what you’re actually sure off. You’ve probably read ‘They F*** you up’ haven’t you? :) if not, I recommend it, uncomfortable that it is.

Not as a dig, or a criticism, but just maybe to ‘edge up’ the debate. Do you think your son who dances to the praise music can ever honestly come to a rational decision on the whole Jesus is god stuff… if from the day he’s born you teach him that it’s as true as night follows day… is it really ever a ‘choice’ or just a process… and is that a positive or negative thing? Maybe don’t think of it in terms of Christianity, thinking Muslims or scientologists.

I know it’s a difficult one. I bet that ‘miraculously’ that my son will grow up to support Liverpool.. nothing to do of course with the baby Liverpool kit I bought him at Anfield yesterday :)

  kickedbyanelephant wrote @ February 17, 2008 at 6:24 pm

It’s a good question. I do think it is possible for young people to make rational choices about what they believe (of course what is considered rational is different to different people). Granted it’s a bit more difficult for children, although I suspect that often they have more understanding of life than we give them credit for.

In my personal experience (I was taken to church/sunday school by my mum), I believe I made a rational decision to follow Jesus when I was 10 and this is a decision I have regularly re-examined as I’ve become older & (slightly) wiser, and my rational has certainly developed. So I suppose it’s a process as well. Obviously I made my initial ‘rational’ choice based on my intellect and experience at that time.

So of course, the question is what would have happened if I had been born into a Muslim family – I admit it’s a fair argument to say I could be writing that I made a rational decision to become a Muslim.
I suppose we’ll never know but it perhaps raises the subject of predestination which is just to heavy to think about right now!

But I certainly know of many examples of people brought up in Christian homes who’ve rejected the Christian faith as well as many brought up in other faiths including athiesm who now profess a Christian faith and I’m sure each would say they made their own rational choices.

I think perhaps encouraging children to question things and explore their doubts is the way forward. (so perhaps when he’s older, I’ll encourage my son to read the Question Monkey’s blog! :) )

In any case, ultimately I believe faith in Jesus is only real if it involves a free, rational & personal choice.

By the way… Liverpool? That’s just cruel! :)

  qmonkey wrote @ February 17, 2008 at 7:14 pm

It’s an interesting tangent -‘what is indoctrination?’ When you were 10, did you have enough evidence to hand and reasoning skills to come to a correct decision that 2000 years ago some earth shattering things happened which have never happened before or since (resurrections and virgin births etc)… and therefore Jesus was god etc etc. And in the light of humans’ inclination to post-rationalise decisions… does it sometimes make you think?

Or (devil’s advocate) did you just get to an age when you realised what you were supposed to do? Having gone to Sunday school from an early age and, I’m sure, praying at home and being told wonderful bible stories why on earth wouldn’t you do what you did and say the prayer? You moved to ‘big school’ started to ride your bike without stabilisers, started to be allowed to stay out a bit later…and asked Jesus into your heart… a progression.

That might not be the case, I just know that looking back my 10ish friends I had at Sunday school when I was 5-16, all of them did that… and all of my school mates who’s parents didn’t go to church… didn’t. Give Me the Child Until He is Seven, and I Will Show You a Man. I know there are people who’s parents weren’t church goers who are converted… but notwithstanding the dramatic testimonies on a Sunday evening, actually the stats for that are very low. Take a show of hands on Sunday morn.

Doesn’t make it bad or any less or more true … just an interesting angle I think on indoctrination vs pre destination vs free will.
(QM – just throwing in little grenades)

  twobigyellowcranes wrote @ February 17, 2008 at 10:01 pm

My hand is up (after I lobbed the grenade back to QMonkey). No dramatic testimonies (or certainly no more dramatic than any other), but I made a decision when I was 12 having not been brought to church by my parents growing up. I didn’t start going to church regularly until I passed my driving test and started to drive to and start to sample local churches. (I should say that after an initial period of wariness, my parents were very accepting and supportive of the decision I made.)

At the end of the day, people come to faith at different times in their life. I don’t expect a child of 7 or 8 to ask the same sort of questions a 30 year old will ask. I’m involved in a course called “Christianity Explored” in my church and I always say to people on that that I believe that God provided us with the ability to reason for a reason. I don’t believe that Christianity is a blind faith, but it is a faith. We all have questions (especially the QMonkey) and we are encouraged to find answers to them. However, sometimes we just have to trust that there are some questions that we will not get answered and that is where the faith bit steps in.

The real question is at what point will we have enough questions answered that we are willing to accept that some of our other questions will never be answered? Do we see enough in the character of Jesus to trust our unanswered questions to him? Easier said that done but if we had 100% of the answers, then the word ‘faith’ wouldn’t be appropriate, would it?

KBE, back to your original post. I saw about half the programme and I had some thoughts identical to yours (reassuring that the distance from Belfast to Coleraine hasn’t spearated our mindsets). Sam’s dad was far more faithful and certainly more passionate about what he believed that I was. Why is it that such desire seems to be so often exclusive from the compassion and grace of Jesus?

  qmonkey wrote @ February 18, 2008 at 10:14 am

Well TBYC, any questions you might have… feel free to pose them. I’m with Barth when he says that unbelief can’t be reasoned with, only preached to… but I’m also with Swift when he says that someone can only be reasoned out of something if he was first reasoned into it… so you are an interesting test case (as is my Bro in law, I must admit – and he’s showing no signs of being reason-out!…yet).

Humanity in all parts of the world has a tendency to insert mystic answers to as yet unanswered questions, I guess its like an algebraic ‘place keeper’ to stave off insanity, but when taken a bit too rigidly it’s also the road that leads to sun dances, witch burning, superstitions and ‘here be dragons’. And worst of all can hold progress back when in the face of good theories and evidence the Judaeo-Christians want to hold on to their Adam and Eve’s , the Shinto’s to Goddess Isanami churning the ocean with a spear, the Maori’s to their Sky Father, Tom Cruise to his Alien insurrection etc etc

All beliefs in moderation and continual re-assessment I say. I’m all for a little bit of faith to get through the day, but assume miracles and magic stuff doesn’t/didn’t happen unless convinced otherwise.

  kickedbyanelephant wrote @ February 18, 2008 at 8:57 pm

Qm, to try to answer your question ‘When you were 10, did you have enough evidence to hand and reasoning skills to come to a correct decision…’, basically, Yes.

Of course, I would say that! But by way of personal testimony my mother was more of a nominal Christian but a regular churchgoer, my father had no interest in Christianity, I didn’t pray or read the Bible at home. So when I became a Christian it never once crossed my mind that it should be something I ‘was supposed to do’ and there was certainly no secondary gain in terms of being congratulated or rewarded and I had no Christian friends at that time. I remember being struck by how it made total sense to me (granted in my immature 10 yr old brain) and being aware of a strong sense of purpose.

I agree that probably a majority of professing Christians come from ‘Christian families’. But this is hardly surprising; surely it’s only natural when you come across something that you believe is life changing (& life saving!) that you would want to share it with those closest to you. So I don’t think that it is necessarily (in italics) evidence of indoctrination.

As I’ve mentioned earlier, because a free, personal choice is key to a real Christian faith, there can be no incentive or value in indoctrinating family members.

  letting the children sing at jaybercrow wrote @ February 23, 2008 at 5:02 am

[...] brewing for a while. I was finally provoked into writing by some interesting discussion over at kicked by an elephant. I didn’t see the programme in question, but I’ve been thinking a lot recently about [...]

  Faith as default « Mary Quite Contrary wrote @ February 24, 2008 at 7:18 pm

[...] said on KBAE’s blog, and Jayber seems to concur that maybe there is no moment when a child of Christian parents ever [...]


Your comment

HTML-Tags:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <pre> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>